Nuck81
Aug 13, 12:21 AM
It's refreshing that I don't have to go to gamespot forums to see a pointless immature fanboy pissing match :rolleyes:
BaldiMac
Apr 6, 04:21 PM
Yeah, like the "bogus numbers" that indicated that back in Q2(?)/2010 Android outsold iOS in the US. Steve is it you? :D
What are you talking about? No one even estimated their market share under 75% for Q4 2010? How could they have dropped 30%?
What are you talking about? No one even estimated their market share under 75% for Q4 2010? How could they have dropped 30%?
Homy
Aug 6, 07:24 AM
MBP owners don't need to worry yet. AnandTech (http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2808&p=1)
"The biggest performance gains are associated with 3D rendering and media encoding tasks. While Core 2 Duo does look nice, as long as you've got a good notebook today you'll probably want to wait until Santa Rosa before upgrading (at the earliest). With Santa Rosa, clock speeds will go up slightly but more importantly we'll get access to a faster FSB. Unfortunately a side-effect of keeping Core 2 Duo fed with a faster FSB is that while performance may go up, battery life may go down. For Apple users this means that early adopters of the new MacBook or MacBook Pro won't be too pressured to upgrade again by the end of this year. Of course Apple has this way of making incremental changes irresistible."
"The biggest performance gains are associated with 3D rendering and media encoding tasks. While Core 2 Duo does look nice, as long as you've got a good notebook today you'll probably want to wait until Santa Rosa before upgrading (at the earliest). With Santa Rosa, clock speeds will go up slightly but more importantly we'll get access to a faster FSB. Unfortunately a side-effect of keeping Core 2 Duo fed with a faster FSB is that while performance may go up, battery life may go down. For Apple users this means that early adopters of the new MacBook or MacBook Pro won't be too pressured to upgrade again by the end of this year. Of course Apple has this way of making incremental changes irresistible."
Lord Blackadder
Mar 22, 08:11 PM
Probably, but it was certainly orchestrated to look anything but. Sarkozy was very obliging in shooting his mouth off, as was Cameron. It may have just been luck, but if so it was a remarkable piece of luck to have 4 submarines, a flagship-capable surface ship and all necessary support in the right place at the right time. These things don't travel very fast.
I agree, it is quite possible. However, the US didn't orchestrate the uprising itself, if anyone is responsible it's the heavy-handed Gadaffi and the Egyptians with their successful revolt.
As for the presence of the naval squadron, the other middle Eastern revolts and the Somali piracy task force meant that we already had units in the area or en-route. It may very well be a case of forward planning rather than a stage-managed "coincidence". Still, we certainly can't know which is the truth.
I agree, it is quite possible. However, the US didn't orchestrate the uprising itself, if anyone is responsible it's the heavy-handed Gadaffi and the Egyptians with their successful revolt.
As for the presence of the naval squadron, the other middle Eastern revolts and the Somali piracy task force meant that we already had units in the area or en-route. It may very well be a case of forward planning rather than a stage-managed "coincidence". Still, we certainly can't know which is the truth.
SuperCachetes
Mar 22, 06:53 PM
Oh yeah... and here's a fun little nugget for those who like to tout Obama's coalition:
Here's a little fun little nugget for those who say "Obama's just Bush all over again."
UN Resolution 1441 (2002) was drafted by the US and UK, and presented at the UN by Bush.
UN Resolution 1973 (2011) was drafted by France, Lebanon, and the UK, and not presented by the US.
Like you, I would rather us not be involved at all - but we hardly have quite the same hand in this latest business as we did when we went WMD-hunting...
Here's a little fun little nugget for those who say "Obama's just Bush all over again."
UN Resolution 1441 (2002) was drafted by the US and UK, and presented at the UN by Bush.
UN Resolution 1973 (2011) was drafted by France, Lebanon, and the UK, and not presented by the US.
Like you, I would rather us not be involved at all - but we hardly have quite the same hand in this latest business as we did when we went WMD-hunting...
littleman23408
Dec 1, 11:31 AM
Heh, if you like driving the bus, you'll LOVE the next two races at Top Gear...
greattttt
I am digging all the other challenges, the go-karts are real cool, but easy. The nascar isn't to bad. Although it took me a couple tries to get gold on the 2nd race. Nurburgring is cool, I know the track so its not to difficult. Then those dang bus's. :rolleyes:
I'm looking forward to the ones after I think nurburgring as I haven't done any after that. I also hope I can roll around the top gear track for fun, maybe I have to level up to a certain level.
greattttt
I am digging all the other challenges, the go-karts are real cool, but easy. The nascar isn't to bad. Although it took me a couple tries to get gold on the 2nd race. Nurburgring is cool, I know the track so its not to difficult. Then those dang bus's. :rolleyes:
I'm looking forward to the ones after I think nurburgring as I haven't done any after that. I also hope I can roll around the top gear track for fun, maybe I have to level up to a certain level.
theBB
Aug 11, 07:28 PM
Confused.
Can somebody explain me the differences between the cellphone market between the US and Europe.
Will a 'iPhone' just be marketed to the US or worldwide (as the iPod does)?
Well, let's see, about 20 years ago, a lot of countries in Europe, Asia and elsewhere decided on a standard digital cell phone system and called it GSM. About 15 years ago GSM networks became quite widespread across these countries. In the meantime US kept on using analog cell phones. Motorola did not even believe that digital cell phone had much of a future, so it decided to stay away from this market, a decision which almost bankrupted the company.
US started rolling out digital service only about 10 years ago. As US government does not like to dictate private companies how to conduct their business, they sold the spectrum and put down some basic ground rules, but for the most part they let the service providers use any network they wished. For one reason or another, these providers decided go with about 4 different standards at first. Quite a few companies went with GSM, AT&T picked a similar, but incompatible TDMA (IS=136?) standard, Nextel went with a proprietary standard they called iDEN and Sprint and Verizon went with CDMA, a radically different standard (IS-95) designed by Qualcomm. At the time, other big companies were very skeptical, so Qualcomm had to not only develop the underlying communication standards, but manufacture cell phones and the electronics for the cell towers. However, once the system proved itself, everybody started moving in that direction. Even the upcoming 3G system for these GSM networks, called UMTS, use a variant of CDMA technology.
CDMA is a more complicated standard compared to GSM, but it allows the providers to cram more users into each cell, it is supposedly cheaper to maintain and more flexible in some respects. However, anybody in that boat has to pay hefty royalties to Qualcomm, dampening its popularity. While creating UMTS, GSM standards bodies did everything they could to avoid using Qualcomm patents to avoid these payments. However, I don't know how successful they got in these efforts.
Even though Europeans here on these forums like to gloat that US did not join the worldwide standard, that we did not play along, that ours is a hodge podge of incompatible systems; without the freedom to try out different standards, CDMA would not have the opportunity to prove its feasibility and performance. In the end, the rest of the world is also reaping the benefits through UMTS/WCDMA.
Of course, not using the same standards as everybody else has its own price. The components of CDMA cell phones cost more and the system itself is more complicated, so CDMA versions of cell phones hit the market six months to a year after their GSM counterparts, if at all. The infrastructure cost of a rare system is higher as well, so AT&T had to rip apart its network to replace it with GSM version about five years after rolling it out. Sprint is probably going to convert Nextel's system in the near future as well.
I hope this answers your question.
Can somebody explain me the differences between the cellphone market between the US and Europe.
Will a 'iPhone' just be marketed to the US or worldwide (as the iPod does)?
Well, let's see, about 20 years ago, a lot of countries in Europe, Asia and elsewhere decided on a standard digital cell phone system and called it GSM. About 15 years ago GSM networks became quite widespread across these countries. In the meantime US kept on using analog cell phones. Motorola did not even believe that digital cell phone had much of a future, so it decided to stay away from this market, a decision which almost bankrupted the company.
US started rolling out digital service only about 10 years ago. As US government does not like to dictate private companies how to conduct their business, they sold the spectrum and put down some basic ground rules, but for the most part they let the service providers use any network they wished. For one reason or another, these providers decided go with about 4 different standards at first. Quite a few companies went with GSM, AT&T picked a similar, but incompatible TDMA (IS=136?) standard, Nextel went with a proprietary standard they called iDEN and Sprint and Verizon went with CDMA, a radically different standard (IS-95) designed by Qualcomm. At the time, other big companies were very skeptical, so Qualcomm had to not only develop the underlying communication standards, but manufacture cell phones and the electronics for the cell towers. However, once the system proved itself, everybody started moving in that direction. Even the upcoming 3G system for these GSM networks, called UMTS, use a variant of CDMA technology.
CDMA is a more complicated standard compared to GSM, but it allows the providers to cram more users into each cell, it is supposedly cheaper to maintain and more flexible in some respects. However, anybody in that boat has to pay hefty royalties to Qualcomm, dampening its popularity. While creating UMTS, GSM standards bodies did everything they could to avoid using Qualcomm patents to avoid these payments. However, I don't know how successful they got in these efforts.
Even though Europeans here on these forums like to gloat that US did not join the worldwide standard, that we did not play along, that ours is a hodge podge of incompatible systems; without the freedom to try out different standards, CDMA would not have the opportunity to prove its feasibility and performance. In the end, the rest of the world is also reaping the benefits through UMTS/WCDMA.
Of course, not using the same standards as everybody else has its own price. The components of CDMA cell phones cost more and the system itself is more complicated, so CDMA versions of cell phones hit the market six months to a year after their GSM counterparts, if at all. The infrastructure cost of a rare system is higher as well, so AT&T had to rip apart its network to replace it with GSM version about five years after rolling it out. Sprint is probably going to convert Nextel's system in the near future as well.
I hope this answers your question.
cait-sith
Aug 11, 12:44 PM
Doesn't Europe have many many carriers in each country? There's no carrier that spans the entire EU, is there?
Who wants to pay 400$ for a phone that will look like an antique 12 months from now? That's a lot of money to pay for the status of having a brand new phone.
Who wants to pay 400$ for a phone that will look like an antique 12 months from now? That's a lot of money to pay for the status of having a brand new phone.
Rodimus Prime
Feb 28, 09:12 PM
Very sorry.
I have dyslexia, so I read sentences in my head, not words. When the words fit, my brain just makes that model of what it thinks the text said.
Sorry for getting mad. :o
I have dyslexia as well. Word of advise. When ever something gets you all mad like that always and I repeat ALWAYS re read it a few times before posting. I have caught myself a few times. Not that it always works.
I was about to say something but saw another posted did.
what it does show is that the brain is wired a certain way. I personally believe homosexallity is both a choice and genetic.
We all fall on a scale that goes from complete homosexaul to straight. Now majority of people are much closer to the straight side and all clustered over there. Then people who are spread out across the all the way to the other end. I do not know how many fall in the bi range compared to complete homosexual cluster.
What this means is some people are much more predisposed to be homosexual than others.
I will repeat there is nothing wrong with it and I have said before they should have the right be married. We have little control over who we are attracted to. We can over ride it somewhat but only to a point. Mostly it feel we take the predisposition and induld it and we go that way.
I have dyslexia, so I read sentences in my head, not words. When the words fit, my brain just makes that model of what it thinks the text said.
Sorry for getting mad. :o
I have dyslexia as well. Word of advise. When ever something gets you all mad like that always and I repeat ALWAYS re read it a few times before posting. I have caught myself a few times. Not that it always works.
I was about to say something but saw another posted did.
what it does show is that the brain is wired a certain way. I personally believe homosexallity is both a choice and genetic.
We all fall on a scale that goes from complete homosexaul to straight. Now majority of people are much closer to the straight side and all clustered over there. Then people who are spread out across the all the way to the other end. I do not know how many fall in the bi range compared to complete homosexual cluster.
What this means is some people are much more predisposed to be homosexual than others.
I will repeat there is nothing wrong with it and I have said before they should have the right be married. We have little control over who we are attracted to. We can over ride it somewhat but only to a point. Mostly it feel we take the predisposition and induld it and we go that way.
WiiDSmoker
Apr 19, 01:39 PM
Apple better not win this case and anyone who thinks that they should are a fool.
Bleubird2
Apr 27, 08:51 AM
Sleep walking a lot lately?
Do you have a kid or someone using your phone while you're asleep?
Do you have a kid or someone using your phone while you're asleep?
grum
Sep 19, 08:11 AM
It gets annoying. Why? Because it's true and most people don't want to admit it.
In a few cases here and there, the extra processor power/speed is going to help. But for a majority of people buying a MacBook, they're not going to be burning home-made DVD's, doing intense Music compositions, or using it for hard-core gaming. They're going to SURF and WRITE.
As for the "resale" value, again, most people who are buying a used MacBook are NOT going to ask "is it a Merom?" They're going to ask how nice the case is, how much use it's gotten, and how much it is, and that's it.
Everybody likes to play "ooo, I'm the hard-core computing whiz and I need the BEST out there", but I bet you if you took an honest poll out there of everyone who's answered this thread, you'd find at least 75% these Apple fans have no need for for the extra speed, they just want it because it's "cool" and "fast" and it's the latest thing out there.
You may be right to a certain extent, but l i assumed that most people who want a Macbook Pro are going to be using it for intensive stuff - I was under the impressions that Macs are the platform of choice for a lot of graphics professionals etc so the high end line would have a lot of those kind of ppl buying. Granted the difference in speed will probably be fairly minimal, but when you are spending a load of cash on a top-of-the line notebook, why shouldnt you expect to have the latest and greatest technology available? It also seems quite likely they might either make them cheaper, or offer more RAM on the base model etc. so buying now unless you really have to seems foolish.
Im also not sure about your point on the resale value, i would imagine pro users probably would be concerned about which processor it had in it.
In a few cases here and there, the extra processor power/speed is going to help. But for a majority of people buying a MacBook, they're not going to be burning home-made DVD's, doing intense Music compositions, or using it for hard-core gaming. They're going to SURF and WRITE.
As for the "resale" value, again, most people who are buying a used MacBook are NOT going to ask "is it a Merom?" They're going to ask how nice the case is, how much use it's gotten, and how much it is, and that's it.
Everybody likes to play "ooo, I'm the hard-core computing whiz and I need the BEST out there", but I bet you if you took an honest poll out there of everyone who's answered this thread, you'd find at least 75% these Apple fans have no need for for the extra speed, they just want it because it's "cool" and "fast" and it's the latest thing out there.
You may be right to a certain extent, but l i assumed that most people who want a Macbook Pro are going to be using it for intensive stuff - I was under the impressions that Macs are the platform of choice for a lot of graphics professionals etc so the high end line would have a lot of those kind of ppl buying. Granted the difference in speed will probably be fairly minimal, but when you are spending a load of cash on a top-of-the line notebook, why shouldnt you expect to have the latest and greatest technology available? It also seems quite likely they might either make them cheaper, or offer more RAM on the base model etc. so buying now unless you really have to seems foolish.
Im also not sure about your point on the resale value, i would imagine pro users probably would be concerned about which processor it had in it.
lgutie20
Apr 11, 11:57 AM
I don't see why people understand from the WWDC invitation that there will be no iPhone 5 during the event and that they will only talk about software!
WWDC is the biggest event and the only adequate platform to present the most popular Apple product! I don't see them changing their formula any time soon even if a software revolution is to take over WWDC.
WWDC is the biggest event and the only adequate platform to present the most popular Apple product! I don't see them changing their formula any time soon even if a software revolution is to take over WWDC.
GFLPraxis
Jul 14, 07:23 PM
2003: "In 12 months, we'll be at 3GHz".
Mid 2006: "I want to talk about 2.66GHz" although 4 cores running at 2.66GHz (Yum! :D ).
Who cares about GHz? In the benchmarks I'm seeing a 2.66 GHz Core 2 Duo is easily outperforming a 3.8 GHz Pentium 4.
Mid 2006: "I want to talk about 2.66GHz" although 4 cores running at 2.66GHz (Yum! :D ).
Who cares about GHz? In the benchmarks I'm seeing a 2.66 GHz Core 2 Duo is easily outperforming a 3.8 GHz Pentium 4.
spicyapple
Nov 28, 07:08 PM
All the more reasons to boycott the buying of Zunes. Consumers need to vote with your wallets and send a message to companies like Universal who treat customers as pirates. Ugh.
Hellhammer
Aug 8, 04:29 AM
I bought GT PSP and its as if the developers actively tried to suck all the enjoyment out of the series.
I've seen several people saying that it's starting to be a car encyclopedia rather than an enjoyable racing game. I kinda agree with that. My last experience with GT is GT2 on PS1 I think but I'm looking forward on this game. Hopefully it will be what I expect, a good, solid driving game. I hope they have spent time on the actual driving too, not just with the cars and 3D stuff etc
I've seen several people saying that it's starting to be a car encyclopedia rather than an enjoyable racing game. I kinda agree with that. My last experience with GT is GT2 on PS1 I think but I'm looking forward on this game. Hopefully it will be what I expect, a good, solid driving game. I hope they have spent time on the actual driving too, not just with the cars and 3D stuff etc
Unspeaked
Aug 7, 09:39 AM
Hey Guys.
When do you think they'll update their website with the new "Mac Pro's"?
Regards,
George
Assuming they're released, they'd probably bring the Apple Store back online around 2:00pm.
(They traditionally take it down during a keynote...)
When do you think they'll update their website with the new "Mac Pro's"?
Regards,
George
Assuming they're released, they'd probably bring the Apple Store back online around 2:00pm.
(They traditionally take it down during a keynote...)
bigmc6000
Jul 14, 03:14 PM
Why? What are the advantages/disadvantages to having it higher or lower in the case? Does the weight distribution matter?
Weight is one - ever try picking up something that's top heavy? It's rather awkward to carry/pickup and makes it much more likely to tip. Another reason being the cord would likely be hanging down from said spot - while this seems ok it's really not good for the wires inside - ideally it would only have sweeping curves in the line as opposed to what happens with havinga plug so high. I'm conflicted about the heat issue as there are pro's and con's to both configs so I'll stick with awkward weight distribution as the key limiting factor.
Weight is one - ever try picking up something that's top heavy? It's rather awkward to carry/pickup and makes it much more likely to tip. Another reason being the cord would likely be hanging down from said spot - while this seems ok it's really not good for the wires inside - ideally it would only have sweeping curves in the line as opposed to what happens with havinga plug so high. I'm conflicted about the heat issue as there are pro's and con's to both configs so I'll stick with awkward weight distribution as the key limiting factor.
kcmac
Apr 10, 10:34 AM
Oh boo hoo about the companies being "booted" from sponsorships. The company I work for goes to trade shows. The time invested is actually quite small and most of the materials are in inventory anyway. The presentations are usually based on the same script. I bet the companies aren't that disappointed. In fact they would like to be there and see what Apple is up to more than anyone else. So I bet they'll send the same presenter staff there to view and record anything of note to send back to their company.
Businesses deal with things by contract and those contracts have terms and conditions. No company would just break a contract so I'm sure everything wad handled quite smoothly behind the scenes. So I think this idea that Apple bullied or pushed people is silly.
There are a few times I have made presentations at a conference when I would have loved to have let someone takeover the podium!
Businesses deal with things by contract and those contracts have terms and conditions. No company would just break a contract so I'm sure everything wad handled quite smoothly behind the scenes. So I think this idea that Apple bullied or pushed people is silly.
There are a few times I have made presentations at a conference when I would have loved to have let someone takeover the podium!
NickUK69
Apr 11, 11:37 AM
Also... with many people on 12 and 18 month contracts, mobile carriers will be wanting to keep customers by signing them to new contracts and in doing so, a new phone. There will be no new iPhone and people will have 'beaten up' 18 month old equipment which they will want to renew and there will be no iPhone, so Android could be onto a winner here!
Hi
With all the Android phones coming out and manufacturers having no specific cycle, the iPhone is really out of date already!
iPhone 1 - 2G
iPhone 2 - adds 3G
iPhone 3 - adds 3GS
Therefore the above three phones are all 'old' regarding what was released around the same time.
iPhone 4 - will be about 18 months old by the time the iPhone 5 comes out.
People will loose interest in Apple iPhones with so many other new releases coming out on a regular basis.
Hi
With all the Android phones coming out and manufacturers having no specific cycle, the iPhone is really out of date already!
iPhone 1 - 2G
iPhone 2 - adds 3G
iPhone 3 - adds 3GS
Therefore the above three phones are all 'old' regarding what was released around the same time.
iPhone 4 - will be about 18 months old by the time the iPhone 5 comes out.
People will loose interest in Apple iPhones with so many other new releases coming out on a regular basis.
mobilehavoc
Apr 6, 02:14 PM
It's funny because appletards tend to speak about numbers in different ways.
When it's related to Macs, they say they sell less than PCs but they're still much better.
When it's related to tablets, they say the iPad sells more because it's better.
So, I'm under the impression that the iPad is just like a "PC-like" market, which everyone buys because someone told it's cheaper and better.
That's what appletards say about PCs, isn't that? Something like an underground market which avoids people from knowing the "real quality" of Macs.
Ps: lol.
I'm not joking when I say this - I held off buying a Macbook for years purely because I didn't want to be associated with these hardcore Apple fanboys who live under Steve Job's bed. It's quite sickening.
I love Apple products, but doesn't mean you have to be blind to the alternatives. It's absolutely amazing how easily people can be brainwashed.
When it's related to Macs, they say they sell less than PCs but they're still much better.
When it's related to tablets, they say the iPad sells more because it's better.
So, I'm under the impression that the iPad is just like a "PC-like" market, which everyone buys because someone told it's cheaper and better.
That's what appletards say about PCs, isn't that? Something like an underground market which avoids people from knowing the "real quality" of Macs.
Ps: lol.
I'm not joking when I say this - I held off buying a Macbook for years purely because I didn't want to be associated with these hardcore Apple fanboys who live under Steve Job's bed. It's quite sickening.
I love Apple products, but doesn't mean you have to be blind to the alternatives. It's absolutely amazing how easily people can be brainwashed.
krcbkidz
Mar 22, 05:10 PM
The difference is Samsung outsources it's OS development, it's developer community management, it's app ecosystem.
Cost competitive doesn't experience competitive.
I think for 'spec' people (hard core coders, corp types that need to control configuration), Samsung (and more importantly, when HP gets in the game HP), will compete there.... HOWEVER, this is a consumer run market, and much like a Sony WalkMan back in the day, or RollerBlades([tm]... the rest were 'inline skates'), Apple is 'defining' the market... and the rest are just knockoffs.
And unlike the old BMW pricing explanation(excuse) for Macs (equal specs and quality... from Apple HP and Dell are about the same in price) Apple is pushing iPad's experience at the BMW levels, but at Honda prices.
And RIM and samsung are pushing mid 80's GM quality against a 2012 BMW at honda prices, when the market will probably demand Kia prices for the 'experience'
Likes this :-)
Cost competitive doesn't experience competitive.
I think for 'spec' people (hard core coders, corp types that need to control configuration), Samsung (and more importantly, when HP gets in the game HP), will compete there.... HOWEVER, this is a consumer run market, and much like a Sony WalkMan back in the day, or RollerBlades([tm]... the rest were 'inline skates'), Apple is 'defining' the market... and the rest are just knockoffs.
And unlike the old BMW pricing explanation(excuse) for Macs (equal specs and quality... from Apple HP and Dell are about the same in price) Apple is pushing iPad's experience at the BMW levels, but at Honda prices.
And RIM and samsung are pushing mid 80's GM quality against a 2012 BMW at honda prices, when the market will probably demand Kia prices for the 'experience'
Likes this :-)
GorillaPaws
Aug 7, 03:49 PM
I was impressed w/ the new iChat features. It will really help me troubleshoot w/ my mom, who is less-than-tech-savy. I'm a good two hours away from her when I'm up at school, so it'll be nice to be able to show her stuff. Plus with the new backgrounds she won't be able to see how filthy my apartment is :D .
Time machine was cool looking, although I'm not sure how often I'll truly use it.
The other thing that popped out at me (after just glancing at the website) was the really cool core animation vid they had up. That would be an amazing screen-saver, I hope they add that in to Leopard for impressing my PC friends. I'm still not sure what the potential uses are for developers are, other than eye candy. I haven't seen many apps that take advantage of core video yet so i wonder how useful this will be to developers. I'd love to hear what you all think about core animation and if it will have any utility.
Time machine was cool looking, although I'm not sure how often I'll truly use it.
The other thing that popped out at me (after just glancing at the website) was the really cool core animation vid they had up. That would be an amazing screen-saver, I hope they add that in to Leopard for impressing my PC friends. I'm still not sure what the potential uses are for developers are, other than eye candy. I haven't seen many apps that take advantage of core video yet so i wonder how useful this will be to developers. I'd love to hear what you all think about core animation and if it will have any utility.
RebootD
Apr 10, 11:39 AM
Considering the number of shocking disappointments (Lion being more iOS, no FCS updates, glossy everything etc) as of late with Apple releases I'm still not holding my breath that they will release something to take me away from CS5. I would love to be surprised though.